Ross Sullivan: Timeline of primary sources

Ross Sullivan Discussion

Re: Ross Sullivan: Timeline of primary sources

Postby Marshall » Mon Feb 06, 2017 10:49 am

doranchak wrote:JeffP, thanks for taking the time to provide an update, and for the persistence of your attempts. It would be nice if we could convince a journalist or investigator to pick up the story and work very hard to chase down more details.


When I first read this, my thought was that it would be a shame to put that family through something like that. But thinking about it further...

Whether its fair or not, Ross is considered a (major) POI in the case. He'll remain so until he can be eliminated as a suspect. I happen to think that, particularly due to his unusual size, he cannot possibly be the guy who shot Paul Stine and was witnessed by several people. So, to me, the sooner we can get some solid info on Ross, the sooner we can eliminate him as a suspect. This would be helpful to us at this site as we could turn our collective focus elsewhere, and of course it would be a relief to Ross' family.

It's been discussed before. A lot of people have pointed out that Ross had a very hard life, and with Tim dying at a young age too, this family has been through a lot. Would it be easier/better for them to help establish Ross' innocence (which might actually be fairly easy to do,depending when he was hospitalized, what his documented weight was at the time of Paul's attack, providing a DNA sample, etc.) or best to hope we can establish Ross' innocence without their help. Or, hope that the Z case can be solved one day, clearing Ross in that fashion.

I'm not in this situation but I'm pretty sure that if this was my family, and one of my relatives, the last thing I would want would be to think that lingering doubt would hang over one of my family members for a crime of this magnitude, for the rest of history. And the thing is, if Ross' innocence isn't established while it still could be, that could be the legacy his memory will be burdened with forever.

To me the whole Ross situation is just plain sad, every way it's looked at, and I feel very badly for the family. The only real question is, what's the best way to have the speculation regarding Ross come to and end, once and for all?
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Re: Ross Sullivan: Timeline of primary sources

Postby Paul_Averly » Mon Feb 06, 2017 9:43 pm

Great work JeffP!

Marshall wrote:I'm not in this situation but I'm pretty sure that if this was my family, and one of my relatives, the last thing I would want would be to think that lingering doubt would hang over one of my family members for a crime of this magnitude, for the rest of history. And the thing is, if Ross' innocence isn't established while it still could be, that could be the legacy his memory will be burdened with forever.


Jack the Ripper will never be solved at this point. All those suspects, will be suspects till the end of time.

Even if Ross' family doesn't want to share the information, I would strongly encourage them to obtain any medical records they can get their hands on, to at least have a way to rule him out. And if they found something that ruled him out, it would spread just quickly over the web as him becoming a prime suspect.

AS FAR AS THE TIMELINE GOES-

Ross is uncounted for in 1969. If it was established he was committed that year, it might clear him. However, 2 important points:

1) Napa State allowed weekend releases. Since all the crimes in 1969 happened on Sat, State Hospital records might not reflect that.
http://www.zodiackiller.com/LBReport14.html

2) Tim stated "he was sure Ross was Z." Tim was in SF in 1969. This tells me that Ross was not locked up that year. Tim could not believe that, if he knew Ross was committed.


So that leaves us with this Gap: 1970 -1974

1970 - Ross was seen in Santa Cruz, not committed.
1974 - Ross is back in Santa Cruz.

If 1971-1974 was when Ross was in Agnews, it perfectly lines up with the gap in Zodiac letters.
Ross could have been committed those years and not be Z, but the dates can't clear him as well.

The only way I can see, is a document that shows Ross was committed to Agnews on the date of an actual Z murder. Dec 68, July 69, Sept 69 or Oct 69.
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Re: Ross Sullivan: Timeline of primary sources

Postby Marshall » Tue Feb 07, 2017 9:55 am

I'm sure there are other ways. For example, a medical document proving Ross' weight was 350 pounds at the time of the PH attack. Hopefully we could agree the witnesses and Foulke couldn't have been off by 175 pounds, when giving their descriptions of the guy exiting and wiping down the cab.

We don't know how serious Tim was when he said he thought Ross was Z. I mean, I've been heard to say that I think my brother-in-law is Spiderman... Had Tim actually gone to police with that assertion it would be one thing, but an offhand comment could very well mean nothing. I wouldn't put too much stock in that. If Tim really, actually, thought his brother was out there killing people, one would think he would've taken some sort of action to stop it, and given Ross' size, that would almost had to have been police intervention. Remember, Ross was immune from the death penalty given his mental state, so Tim "turning him in" would not have had a negative impact on Ross. Just a trip back to the hospital, this time with more restrictions.

All I'm saying is, I think there could be multiple ways to establish Ross' innocence, and I think Tim's comment should probably be discounted somewhat.
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Re: Ross Sullivan: Timeline of primary sources

Postby morf13 » Wed Feb 08, 2017 10:37 am

JeffP wrote:Alright i'll let everyone in on something. About one and half months ago one of Ross' first cousins (whom I contacted in summer of 2015) contacted me out of the blue. She didn't really know much about Ross, because she was younger than him and never actually met him. She was friendly with Jonathon and Timothy as the east coast Sullivans and the west coast Sullivans reunited in the early 1970s and she got to know them then. She remains friendly with Jonathan's family.

Anyway we exchanged several messages and talked about some things.

1) The family definitely knows about this site and our investigation of Ross.

2) Apparently there was some sort of family conference about whether they would help me/us at all after she and I began discussing this.

She is a very nice lady and has been very respectful, and seemed genuinely interested in what we have found. But it's obvious that the family decided not to help and now she won't talk to me anymore. The only information I got out of her was that Ross was no longer involved in family activities by the early 1970s and that Harold Sullivan had died of kidney cancer.

This was EXTREMELY disappointing for me. So much so that I all but gave up on the whole thing, until the past few days when this new information arrived.

Here's the thing. I contacted her very recently again and asked her if she could tell me what happened with Harold that would cause him to leave his sons in foster care. Again, she was very nice, but she wrote, "i'm sorry Jeff, but you're going to have to get that information from someone else," suggesting - as I strongly suspect - that something big had in fact happened. I believe the family knows far more than they are letting on. But the family clearly doesn't want to talk about it and, honestly, they seem like very nice people. So I feel badly bothering them.

I have a suspicion I know what it is due to what Allan Sillanphant told us. But I have no details so I prefer not assume anything about it. But I think this newest lead could help us unravel this mystery. I know many people have not been as interested as some of us at looking at Harold. But Ross' problems seem to have started around then and we know he spent time in mental hospitals BEFORE he went to Riverside. So this could lead to other information as well. I was wondering if anyone was willing to work together to locate this younger Prugh guy and ask him about Ross and Harold. Or possibly make another attempt to contact the Glendale YMCA and ask them if they're willing to help us.

Not much has been going on and I assume most of you are as frustrated as I am researching this. But i'd like to give it another shot.



Thanks Jeff for the work & time you put in! You never know if it will lead to anything. It's worth digging into. Maybe they will have a change of heart & open up.
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Re: Ross Sullivan: Timeline of primary sources

Postby morf13 » Wed Feb 08, 2017 10:57 am

Marshall wrote:
doranchak wrote:JeffP, thanks for taking the time to provide an update, and for the persistence of your attempts. It would be nice if we could convince a journalist or investigator to pick up the story and work very hard to chase down more details.


When I first read this, my thought was that it would be a shame to put that family through something like that. But thinking about it further...

Whether its fair or not, Ross is considered a (major) POI in the case. He'll remain so until he can be eliminated as a suspect. I happen to think that, particularly due to his unusual size, he cannot possibly be the guy who shot Paul Stine and was witnessed by several people. So, to me, the sooner we can get some solid info on Ross, the sooner we can eliminate him as a suspect. This would be helpful to us at this site as we could turn our collective focus elsewhere, and of course it would be a relief to Ross' family.

It's been discussed before. A lot of people have pointed out that Ross had a very hard life, and with Tim dying at a young age too, this family has been through a lot. Would it be easier/better for them to help establish Ross' innocence (which might actually be fairly easy to do,depending when he was hospitalized, what his documented weight was at the time of Paul's attack, providing a DNA sample, etc.) or best to hope we can establish Ross' innocence without their help. Or, hope that the Z case can be solved one day, clearing Ross in that fashion.

I'm not in this situation but I'm pretty sure that if this was my family, and one of my relatives, the last thing I would want would be to think that lingering doubt would hang over one of my family members for a crime of this magnitude, for the rest of history. And the thing is, if Ross' innocence isn't established while it still could be, that could be the legacy his memory will be burdened with forever.

To me the whole Ross situation is just plain sad, every way it's looked at, and I feel very badly for the family. The only real question is, what's the best way to have the speculation regarding Ross come to and end, once and for all?


Alas,with any kind of fresh news,comes the nay-sayers. What do you mean by 'unusual size'?? Ross was described by the witness that described him when he was attacked in the apartment as NOT being 300 pounds,more in the mid 200's. Zodiac at lake Berryessa was felt to be "well over 200lbs" based on shoe track impressions. How tall was Ross again, 6ft2? It's not like he was an unusual NBA height.

I'll give you one more thing, if I am Fouke, or the kids in the window,I may be able to see if somebody has a crewcut,glasses,whether they are thin or stocky,etc. I could provide those details, but how accurately could I describe height? I'll post pics from the crime scene. How can you say the Kids could judge height from this view? How tall is Toschi in this pic? Better yet, Fouke is seated in a moving car looking outside at somebody walking, how well could he judge height?
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Re: Ross Sullivan: Timeline of primary sources

Postby Paul_Averly » Wed Feb 08, 2017 1:06 pm

The height and weight keeps being repeated over and over as a way to dismiss Ross as a suspect. Almost every thread has at some point gone off the rails and turned into a debate about height and weight. And sure, Ross fall into the largest descriptions of Z.

The main thing is this. Terrible suspects, like Earl Van Best, can be quickly eliminated due to some inconsistency with the description. EVB was simply to small to be Z. But more importantly, EVB has no connection to any of the Z crime scenes or victims.

But lets just say someone comes up with evidence EVB was seen getting into Paul Stines cab. Now the height and weight issue, while important, becomes less of a reason to eliminate him as a suspect.

Connection to a crime location and victim carries much more weight than physical description.
With Ross, he would have been a great suspect with just the library and Bates connection. But surprise, he also matches the composite better than any suspect even has. All that carries more weight than Ross' actual weight.
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Re: Ross Sullivan: Timeline of primary sources

Postby morf13 » Wed Feb 08, 2017 3:57 pm

Paul_Averly wrote:The height and weight keeps being repeated over and over as a way to dismiss Ross as a suspect. Almost every thread has at some point gone off the rails and turned into a debate about height and weight. And sure, Ross fall into the largest descriptions of Z.

The main thing is this. Terrible suspects, like Earl Van Best, can be quickly eliminated due to some inconsistency with the description. EVB was simply to small to be Z. But more importantly, EVB has no connection to any of the Z crime scenes or victims.

But lets just say someone comes up with evidence EVB was seen getting into Paul Stines cab. Now the height and weight issue, while important, becomes less of a reason to eliminate him as a suspect.

Connection to a crime location and victim carries much more weight than physical description.
With Ross, he would have been a great suspect with just the library and Bates connection. But surprise, he also matches the composite better than any suspect even has. All that carries more weight than Ross' actual weight.


Well said MrLowe. Just about every description of Z puts him at bulky,stocky,chubby,etc...I think that's pretty consistent. Te height is the thing that bounces around. Mageau had a light in his eyes while he was being shot at. Hartnell said he was a poor judge of weight due to his own extreme height. The girls at the lake described a guy that may have been 6ft2(assuming he was zodiac)and the Pacific Heights witnesses just had bad vantage points to judge height.

I don't care about the height/weight of a good Suspect, unless it's somebody like EVB who is simply much smaller & lighter than Z was described. He was in no way stocky,chubby,or otherwise large,he was the complete opposite.

All I want to see is the Guy that looks identical to the sketch,knew Cheri Jo Bates, and was in the RCC Library where Zodiac's writing was linked,properly ruled out.
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Re: Ross Sullivan: Timeline of primary sources

Postby Eric P Norman » Thu Feb 09, 2017 3:10 am

This looks like a good moment for summarizing. I only just recently developed interest in the Zodiac’s identity. I heard Mike on a podcast and looked up this site. Coming in with a fresh perspective, I found it amazing how unlikely most of the POI’s were…but how uncanny things appear with Ross Sullivan. The coincidences seem too many. Like this comparison of Zodiac’s written numbers to that on Ross’ social security card application:

Comparison.jpg


I think Jeff’s communication with the cousin is very telling. If they thought about aiding the investigation but decided not to…I just can’t image them thinking “we could help rule out our family member but we don’t want to.” I do feel for the family. What a strange thing to have to deal with!

As far as Harold being mysterious, I still have questions about Harriet. Why was she not listed (in sexist parenthesis) as Harold’s wife in the Glendale directory? Notice how Prugh’s wife is listed. Why was there nothing in the press about a funeral for her? Or an obituary? I would like to find out where in Glendale she taught. So far, I just have a list of possible schools.

Here are some other thoughts I have:

HOSPITALIZATION
Here’s a Santa Cruz article from April 15, 1969 that I find interesting. It’s about a suicide attempt by an out-patient at Agnew State Hospital. That means that the hospital was treating her but she would not stay there overnight. After the incident, she was taken to General Hospital- the same place the “Riverside man” in the “dazed trance” was taken to ten months earlier. Back in this article, the ironically named John Runner, who ran to get help, was reported to live at 512 Second Street (an address for Ross). I think this article shows that it could be possible that Ross was getting mental health treatment while still having the ability for outside action.

4-15-69 jumper.jpg


THEATER
The Zodiac’s extended references to Mikado hint at a possible theater arts association. Ross’ senior high school yearbook lists “acting (Thespian)” and “Orator’s club” (also theater-related) as activities. There are several documented cases of his acting. It is estimated that Stine picked up Zodiac around 9pm on a Saturday night…from San Francisco’s “theater district.” I have been trying to find out what performances were there that night, but it isn’t easy. There were about half a dozen playhouses within a block or two from where the Zodiac was picked up. I know it was reported that the police investigated actors, but there had to be hundreds of people involved in those productions. The description of the Zodiac costume, with the sewn-on symbol, makes me think it’s possible the Zodiac had access to costuming materials…maybe “backstage.” I would love to be able to look at the cast and crew names in the programs from that night. So far, I have only found a record of a collection in the possession of a SF theater historical society. I would also love to view that student film that Ross was the “star” of.

SIZE
When in high school, Ross was a fit athlete, worthy of mention for his swimming. When he died, he was pronounced extremely obese (and he was possibly in that home due to ambulatory difficulties). The Zodiac killings are in the middle of that time. It’s unknown when his transition took place. To me, he can’t be ruled out because the descriptions of the Zodiac indicate a large man. Often the estimates are qualified with an “at least.” Example: the shoe prints that they estimated were from a suspect “more than 210 pounds.” It seems to me a reasonable hypothesis that Ross became obese while institutionalized. 1974 had correspondence but no more documented crimes. After that, increased weight and correlated mobility issues prevented further Zodiac activity.

RIVERSIDE
Jo Ann Baily’s letter says “you will note from his transcript…” Where did this letter originate? Was there a transcript copy with it? I’d love to read any of his poems, but the mention of the school publication states that he wrote it for the publication; it didn’t say that they published it. Another thing: she later talks about Ross sitting on the low wall that lined the pit when “he was not officially enrolled at RCC.” Not only was he “not around the day after the murder,” but she writes that “it was a few weeks before he reappeared at his spot on the pit wall.” I point this out because it was reported that, due to the struggle, the murderer would have had visible scrape marks, etc. I would love to see that transcript. I also want to find out more about his time at UCSC.

Those are some thoughts I have, just coming in fresh to this. I appreciate all of your guy’s hard work and I hope I can help in some way. But, I will end with some levity: I think the smoking gun would be if we find any butter stains on the letters.
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Re: Ross Sullivan: Timeline of primary sources

Postby Mr lowe » Thu Feb 09, 2017 3:18 am

Eric that was neat
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Re: Ross Sullivan: Timeline of primary sources

Postby up2something » Thu Feb 09, 2017 7:23 am

Nicely done, Eric.
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