Zodiackillersite.com

Well, he has to be placed in SF area eventually, yes. He also needs to be shown that he was not institutionalized at the time. But I would point out that if his brother suspected his involvement, then he did not consider distance or institutionalization to be impediments.

i agree wholly Nick - if Ross's brother seems to believe he may have been capable of frequenting the Bay Area that is very compelling, but it's still not concrete enough to establish a documented location for Ross on the days of the murders. I have said before and I will say again that one need not live in the Bay Area proper to commit these murders. It could have been someone who stayed an hour or so from SF who knows. Suppositions that the Zodiac must have resided in San Francisco confuse me being that I'm from CA and I know how people just up and make trips around here all the time. My sig other jumped in the car and drove up to Santa Cruz and decided to continue on up to SF for the heck of it 2 weeks ago - just Bc he was bored. Drove from Riverside up there. I agree that If Ross was institutionalized/incarcerated during the crimes that would be an excellent rule out.

Norse wrote:

PinkPhantom wrote:Please provide documentation of him being anywhere (addresses/institutions/etc) during the time of the Zodiac murders and I will give you a feather for your sleuth hat.

But on general principle it surely must be the other way around - no? I can't document that my grandfather was not in the Vallejo area on July 4th 1969. But nobody in his right mind would consider this an indication that he was in the area.

The onus must be on the investigators/researchers/theorists to document that there is a valid connection - a valid proximity, if you will - to the relevant areas/crime scenes.

I guess you are both right. People say Ross is not a valid suspect because you can not place him in Vallejo,Napa, SF,etc. But that doesn't mean he wasn't there. On the other hand, to prove he could be Z, he must be linked to that area. That's where we are stuck with him. A promising Suspect that matches the Z sketch and is linked to the RCC library where Zodiac is linked to, yet we can not verify his movements or activity during the Z years. I wish his Brother Tim was still alive. he had to have reasons for suspecting Ross of being Z

PinkPhantom wrote:I'm not sure if this point was lost on you when you read my response to Doc?

Yeah, probably was - many points are lost on me, so that's very likely.

However, you seemingly demanded documentation (from another poster) that Ross was NOT in the relevant areas at the relevant times. And my point was that this is different from demanding documentation that he WAS.

Proving non-existence isn't necessary. That was my point - only that. I agree, of course, that we simply don't know where the hell he was - and until we do, we're a bit stuck (as morf says above).

Norse wrote:

PinkPhantom wrote:I'm not sure if this point was lost on you when you read my response to Doc?

Yeah, probably was - many points are lost on me, so that's very likely.

However, you seemingly demanded documentation (from another poster) that Ross was NOT in the relevant areas at the relevant times. And my point was that this is different from demanding documentation that he WAS.

Proving non-existence isn't necessary. That was my point - only that. I agree, of course, that we simply don't know where the hell he was - and until we do, we're a bit stuck (as morf says above).

Lol I did not demand that He provide documentation. That's silly. I said if he could track down documentation of Ross's whereabouts (in general) during the time of the Zodiac murders I would give him a feather for his sleuth hat. I didn't say if he could prove Ross was NOT in the areas in all actuality - just rhetorical point that again no one can prove either way if he was or was not near the crime scenes - yet - unless someone finds info and that would be great!!! In fact, and to belabor my point, I've said time and time again that no one can establish whether he was or wasn't near the crimescenes - no one knows. I just wish we could figure out where he was even if it's in general to put the debates to rest and rule him out if he is indeed innocent. Again I'm not sure you initially followed my rhetoric but that's fine - I was responding to Doc1 assertions that Ross should not be looked at as closely as a POI because we can't confirm he was around the crimescenes/SF. My point was that we also cannot confirm that he was not near the crime scenes. I think that's where things got confusing maybe. My apologies if I didn't dictate my point properly. Maybe I'm not understanding you, either way - apologies. Anyways, handwriting... Lol

I'm gonna try my best to see when I go to RCC if any handwriting is around for Ross. Not sure how I could ever possibly find this.

PinkPhantom wrote:
Lol I did not demand that He provide documentation. That's silly. I said if he could track down documentation of Ross's whereabouts (in general) during the time of the Zodiac murders I would give him a feather for his sleuth hat. I didn't say if he could prove Ross was NOT in the areas in all actuality - just rhetorical point that again no one can prove either way if he was or was not near the crime scenes - yet - unless someone finds info and that would be great!!!

Fair enough, I misread it slightly.

Anyway, I don't think Doc positively rules out Ross based on the fact that we don't know where he was - I read it more as him simply emphasizing that the lack of positive/tangible evidence is a major problem. Which it is, of course.

I agree with that for sure. We do need tangible evidence. Documentation. Not heresay from Ross's sibling. But I wouldn't be so quick to write off Ross because we don't have the information we seek (as I felt Doc was kind of doing). We still have much to learn about him. IMO Nothing tangible has been presented to rule him out yet. IMO there has been more tangible documentation to rule him in than rule him out, but this is true with many POIs so I take it with a grain of salt. I thought the same things about ALA and Kane at points, too. One learns to not put too much weight into a POI after time, but when a decent POI comes along I would hope he is investigated fully until he can be ruled out definitively. Until this is done with Ross I will be interested in his handwriting, movements, interests etc just like I was the POIs before him ( I was not on this site posting when I was researching/reading about the other POIs so it may appear as if I only suspect Ross here - which is not the case).

Any ideas of where a librarian might hand write things down in the 1960's?

morf13 wrote:

Norse wrote:

PinkPhantom wrote:Please provide documentation of him being anywhere (addresses/institutions/etc) during the time of the Zodiac murders and I will give you a feather for your sleuth hat.

But on general principle it surely must be the other way around - no? I can't document that my grandfather was not in the Vallejo area on July 4th 1969. But nobody in his right mind would consider this an indication that he was in the area.

The onus must be on the investigators/researchers/theorists to document that there is a valid connection - a valid proximity, if you will - to the relevant areas/crime scenes.

I guess you are both right. People say Ross is not a valid suspect because you can not place him in Vallejo,Napa, SF,etc. But that doesn't mean he wasn't there. On the other hand, to prove he could be Z, he must be linked to that area. That's where we are stuck with him.Z

Well, we have some idea where he was based on what the living brother told the reporter for the ratter article. He indicated that Ross was committed to Agnews Insane Asylum in Santa Clara. This was the only useful bit of information he provided. Given this knowledge, it would not surprise me if Ross spent some time in Napa State Hospital as well. We have no dates or times though. We're stuck until we can find someone who knows more about what happened to Ross.

PinkPhantom wrote:So I ask, are you still positive that Ross was NOT around the San Fran or Bay Area during the Zodiac murders? Please provide documentation of him being anywhere (addresses/institutions/etc) during the time of the Zodiac murders and I will give you a feather for your sleuth hat.

Well, aside from the fact that I cannot prove a negative, then I don't have that information. However, I do have an issue here.

We do know for a confirmed fact that Ross spent time in a mental institution, more than likely on an involuntary hold (I don't have evidence of that but it is speculation, given his attack on the man in the phone booth [assuming that individual was Ross, which I'll concede was him]). We also are having a seemingly impossible time trying to find anywhere Ross was at afterwards, except for at the time of his death. From my research, he died in an Assisted Care facility in Santa Cruz, and he stayed in that facility for 3 years prior. His cause of death, we know, is due to obesity and Pickwickians syndrome, which is basically just an inability to get oxygen due to obesity related issues. We can easily conclude that he was in this assisted care facility due to his health issues. Therefore, in 1974-1977 Ross is easy to place. We know Ross left Riverside in November of 67 and went to Santa Cruz, where we believe he was arrested and held in a mental hospital for at least 72 hours in Feb 1968. Given the nature of the attack, however, it wouldn't surprise me if Ross was held involuntarily for even longer in this hospital. I won't guess how long, as it would be just speculation that I cannot prove. However, one thing's for sure: We have only 10 months of a time frame to place Ross anywhere near LHR, from his residence at Santa Cruz, where he may or may not be in a mental hospital already.

Another problem is, no one can find Ross in a UC Santa Cruz yearbook. This is the only reason why I am convinced it was Ross who was arrested in Feb 1968, despite no name being attached to the arrest article. I speculate that Ross cannot be found in the UCSC yearbook because he only attended USCS for the months of Nov-Feb, where then he is placed involuntarily in a mental hospital for a long future. The RCC librarian letter also states she believed Ross was being held in a mental facility at the time she wrote the letter. I can only imagine that Ross was in a mental facility for a majority of his life from 1968-1974.


We also need to establish a link between Ross and firearms. It's especially interesting to figure out how Ross acquired so many different firearms to commit murders when he was a mental patient.

1doctor wrote:

PinkPhantom wrote:So I ask, are you still positive that Ross was NOT around the San Fran or Bay Area during the Zodiac murders? Please provide documentation of him being anywhere (addresses/institutions/etc) during the time of the Zodiac murders and I will give you a feather for your sleuth hat.

Well, aside from the fact that I cannot prove a negative, then I don't have that information. However, I do have an issue here.

We do know for a confirmed fact that Ross spent time in a mental institution, more than likely on an involuntary hold (I don't have evidence of that but it is speculation, given his attack on the man in the phone booth [assuming that individual was Ross, which I'll concede was him]). We also are having a seemingly impossible time trying to find anywhere Ross was at afterwards, except for at the time of his death. From my research, he died in an Assisted Care facility in Santa Cruz, and he stayed in that facility for 3 years prior. His cause of death, we know, is due to obesity and Pickwickians syndrome, which is basically just an inability to get oxygen due to obesity related issues. We can easily conclude that he was in this assisted care facility due to his health issues. Therefore, in 1974-1977 Ross is easy to place. We know Ross left Riverside in November of 67 and went to Santa Cruz, where we believe he was arrested and held in a mental hospital for at least 72 hours in Feb 1968. Given the nature of the attack, however, it wouldn't surprise me if Ross was held involuntarily for even longer in this hospital. I won't guess how long, as it would be just speculation that I cannot prove. However, one thing's for sure: We have only 10 months of a time frame to place Ross anywhere near LHR, from his residence at Santa Cruz, where he may or may not be in a mental hospital already.

Another problem is, no one can find Ross in a UC Santa Cruz yearbook. This is the only reason why I am convinced it was Ross who was arrested in Feb 1968, despite no name being attached to the arrest article. I speculate that Ross cannot be found in the UCSC yearbook because he only attended USCS for the months of Nov-Feb, where then he is placed involuntarily in a mental hospital for a long future. The RCC librarian letter also states she believed Ross was being held in a mental facility at the time she wrote the letter. I can only imagine that Ross was in a mental facility for a majority of his life from 1968-1974.


We also need to establish a link between Ross and firearms. It's especially interesting to figure out how Ross acquired so many different firearms to commit murders when he was a mental patient.

*Ross was under care from 1974 to 1977. When was the last Z letter? 1974.

*Not finding Ross in the Santa Cruz yearbook is not a big deal, we know he was at RCC for years, and he is not in any of those yearbooks

*Ross,is without a doubt, the guy arrested for the phonebooth incident.

*There's no way to know for sure how long and when Ross was in the mental institutions

*If his Brother Tim suspected he was Z, he likely would have reasons, and likely would not think that Ross was Z if he knew Ross was hospitalized during Z murders.