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The writing alone isn't enough,certainly, but if a Suspect looks exactly like the sketch, was in the RCC Library, and also had several shared writing habits with Z, then that would strengthen a case against him. That's why I want to find more writing by Ross

PinkPhantom wrote:when POIs are based on handwriting alone I turn off. But when there is a suspect that circumstantially fits the bill to the extent that Ross has I think handwriting analysis is then interesting. It shouldn't be evidence of someone's involvement, but suggestive of their involvement in writing the Z letters. It helps build a case so to speak, but it isn't necessarily a credible science that is impenetrable to conjecture - not like DNA or fingerprints or a confession. Yes, Ross was known to use deceptive handwriting techniques or at least rumored to have used them, but I am not going to give him as much credit to say that he could pull it off perfectly without flaws and giving up some telltale signs of his own writing style. But Even then, any variations in the writing Ross presents whether as himself or if he was Z would make a test inconclusive, whether the variations were deliberate or not.

At any rate, it is interesting to study and compare IMHO when looking at a credible POI.

Here's my problem though:

1) LB car door writing shows that one had to write the message on the car door in a relatively quick amount of time for obvious reasons. The handwriting on that door is the same from the letters, so much that the "untrained" eye can see that. It must then be concluded that the other letters were written without the time-constraining obfuscation that would occur when trying to change your handwriting.
2) Therefore, even speculating that Ross (or any other POI) studied handwriting obfuscation is a completely moot point, as Z demonstrated that he doesn't actively partake in it via the door's handwriting.

3)

But when there is a suspect that circumstantially fits the bill to the extent that Ross has

Here's the thing though: Fit what bill? Ross looks like the composite, but how many other POI's look like the composite? In fact, how many individuals could we take out Ross's very own yearbook and say that they also mirror the composite? I imagine many of us have looked over that same yearbook and many of us can agree that we could find many other people who look like the composite in that yearbook alone, much less all over SoCal at the time.

But what else? CBJ murder is not a confirmed zodiac murder. In my personal opinion, there's more weight in the idea that Ross killed CBJ than committed the Zodiac killings. However, we still aren't sure of his alibi, but the alibi was apparently good enough for law enforcement.

As far as facts, and not speculation goes, the only fact of Ross fitting the Z details is the fact that he looks like the composite. That's literally it. We cannot place Ross near any of the scenes or in any of the cities where the murders happened. In fact, as far as we know, Ross may have not even had access to the public in that timeframe. Ross, while an interesting character, doesn't exactly fit any sort of bill as far as Z goes. So far, all evidence that has been accumulated against Ross is nearly all speculation or circumstantial.


Do I think Ross was Z or the killer of CBJ? I'm not sure, because there are definitely parts about him that do need investigation to clear him of being a POI/suspect. I currently don't think there's any sort of evidence whatsoever that he was a participant in any of the events. Do I think that means don't investigate him? Of course not! If there was any evidence that he was in a mental institution at any given time during those murders, then it obviously drops him as a POI/suspect. We don't know if he was there during those times, which is why so many are investigating. However, my assertion is, that too much is invested in all these suspect's handwriting, when it real evidence could be found instead. How many POI's have "similar" handwriting to the letters? On top of that, how many people already believe the zodiac took means to purposefully change his handwriting? There can only be 1, of course. What explains all the similarities in all the other suspects writing with the zodiacs, then? I submit that these similarities are just typical similarities, or the ones people liken to "being very rare" (IE capitalizing CaL in California) are not as rare as people believe.


Again, the above is only my opinion, though, and I don't mean to cause a negative discourse with it

Personally, I think the Berryessa car door writer(and also the killer at Berryessa)and the Riverside desktop & Letter writer, are all one and the same-the Zodiac. I also agree, at Lake B, the Killer likely would have been nervous and not had time to do much in the way of hiding his writing or changing it, and in fact, the door easily looks to be a match to the desk in Riverside, which also was not likely changed or disguised.

Ross looking 'looking like the sketch' is more than that. He looked exactly like the sketch, the closest match of any other Suspect....period, right down to the very distinct widow's peak described by Fouke. More than that, he can be placed in the RCC Library where the desk poem was found,which is more than we can say for ANY OTHER Suspect.

Again, these are all just puzzle pieces. If we could place Ross nearer to the Z crimes, that would be huge, or if we had more writing from him, that may prove to be really interesting. With Ross, the interest isn't in one thing or another, it's in several things

Doc1, surely I do not base my POIs on appearance. In fact I was interested in Ross as a POI before photos of him were even discovered. So that assumption on your part as to why I believe Ross "fits the bill" being based off looks is incorrect.

Morf, yes the car door and the desk poem script are both very similar - ie the candy cane "f".

it would be interesting to know whether or not the car door and desk poem were written in a form closest to the murderers actual handwriting script. I'm not sure if I agree with doc that his letters script/handwriting have a resemblance to the script on the car door and desk poem, but that's just me. I wasn't a graphology major.

I've never heard of a POI that was based *soley* on handwriting. For one, wouldn't that require a positive handwriting match? I've never seen any comparisons that were deemed to be matches, other than ones that were not coincidentially matched by the same person promoting the POI. I'm not going to name names, but let's just say a few of them wrote books and appeared on the news.

Everyone I've seen on here that feels a positive tendency towards a match is always calling for further analysis and more comparisons, not just declaring their own opinion to make a match.

I think that handwriting is one of the BEST things that we as amateurs have, because its the only real evidence that we are capable of analysizing and comparing ourselves.

I agree we can't get definite conclusions based on a sample like this, but we can still get an some indicator of Ross' writing characteristics. Is there anyone saying, based on this, that they have NO reason to look at anymore of Ross' writing? I don't think so. So I say it's valuable.

whoa whoa, a lot of stuff I disagree with here

1) LB car door writing shows that one had to write the message on the car door in a relatively quick amount of time for obvious reasons. The handwriting on that door is the same from the letters, so much that the "untrained" eye can see that. It must then be concluded that the other letters were written without the time-constraining obfuscation that would occur when trying to change your handwriting.

It matches SOME of the letters. Confirmed Z letters are all over the place in handwriting. There's all kinds of strange things going on with Z's handwriting and active changes to the writing seem pretty obvious. I mean, what the hell is the Belli letter if not a style choice?

Here's the thing though: Fit what bill? Ross looks like the composite, but how many other POI's look like the composite?

To the extent Ross does? Not a single one I've seen. Certainly not a well known POI.

In fact, how many individuals could we take out Ross's very own yearbook and say that they also mirror the composite? I imagine many of us have looked over that same yearbook and many of us can agree that we could find many other people who look like the composite in that yearbook alone, much less all over SoCal at the time.

Well sure if you expand things to people who were not POIs in any shape or fashion you might find a decent match somewhere.

Well, I disagree that the desktop poem was written by the same individual who wrote on the LB car door, judging by handwriting alone. I also don't agree that the person who wrote on the desktop also killed CJB.

I again reiterate that while Ross certainly is a decent suspect in the CJB murder, there is absolutely zero evidence of Ross being associated with any of the Z killings. No one can place him anywhere near Vallejo or SF after Riverside.

Again, I'm not saying that Ross as a POI is a wild goose chase, but I'm saying from an investigators standpoint, there is very very little evidence to link Ross to the Z murders. When I first saw Ross as a POI I was very interested because it all did seem strange. Then I took a step back and looked at it as an investigator and then a lot of the things that looked interesting just turned out to be just that, interesting. Not evidence, but just a strange individual.


Also, in honesty, the handwriting from Ross's SSA does not look to match with Z.

1doctor wrote:Well, I disagree that the desktop poem was written by the same individual who wrote on the LB car door, judging by handwriting alone. I also don't agree that the person who wrote on the desktop also killed CJB.

I again reiterate that while Ross certainly is a decent suspect in the CJB murder, there is absolutely zero evidence of Ross being associated with any of the Z killings. No one can place him anywhere near Vallejo or SF after Riverside.

Again, I'm not saying that Ross as a POI is a wild goose chase, but I'm saying from an investigators standpoint, there is very very little evidence to link Ross to the Z murders. When I first saw Ross as a POI I was very interested because it all did seem strange. Then I took a step back and looked at it as an investigator and then a lot of the things that looked interesting just turned out to be just that, interesting. Not evidence, but just a strange individual.


Also, in honesty, the handwriting from Ross's SSA does not look to match with Z.

Have you seen the side by side writing comparison by Trav? viewtopic.php?f=80&t=397 & this viewtopic.php?f=96&t=789

1doctor wrote:
On top of that, I don't think there's much to be invested in handwriting analysis to start with.

I concur. Sometimes it's all we have, though, in the form of anything substantial to look at. So, I don't see any harm in looking at it - or rather I won't discourage others from doing so even though I don't put much stock in it myself.

Part of the problem for me is that much of Z's known writing is printing, which tends to be pretty generic. Coming up with matches doesn't seem to be all that difficult. People have gotten excited about matches between Z and what turned out to be persons who clearly had nothing whatsoever to do with the case.

One thing which is very interesting to me is the general question of obfuscation, forced writing/printing versus natural flow, the wildly different appearances of confirmed Z writing - and so forth.

Morrill claimed Z's writing was "natural" and that he didn't obfuscate. Hard to reconcile with the obvious differences and what looks like clear obfuscation in the particular case of the Riverside material (which Morrill himself confirmed as Z's work).

While there are some Suspects who have some commonalities with Zodiac's writing, there is also some suspect's writing that simply look nothing at all like Zodiac's, and we can immediately see that and realize it without being trained experts. Writing is just one of the tools in the tool box, and usually,it's the tool we have the most access to as amateur sleuths.