Facts & Evidence - Ted Kaczynski As The Zodiac

[AK Wilks]

When I asked Paul Holes he said "we don't know if any of these prints are actually from Zodiac". Then I specifically asked him about what Graysmith described as prints in blood. Could it have been an existing print that was then covered in blood or was it actually a print made in blood meaning unless there was an extremely careless ambulance attendent it was very likely made by the killer. And Mr. Holes just answered again "We don't know if any of the cab prints are actually from Zodiac". He did not give any more specific details.

Bottom line is Crime Lab Chief Paul Holes said mentioning Mr. X and Ted Kaczynski and saying "I would not dismiss them or any otherwise good suspect solely on the basis of a non-match to the cab prints or DNA."

[snooter]

well said norse//if TK is the master fingerprint hider as AK believes in my take its all relevant..you would think something would have been there..in the end it appears no prints partial or otherwise have led to any meaningful end...im not sure how well received a partial this may be our guy print would stand up in court..mose definite appeal on any conviction...i guess most look at stine as best chance to catch Z..someways i would argue for that as his shirt was cut..mostly though I do not believe stein is any more or less meaningful that the other homicides as far as any key

[Norse]

One reason for thinking the Stine prints are the real deal is Z's own, conspicuous insistence they are not. I honestly think the best explanation for his “fake clews” claim is the most obvious one: He was scared. He had left real clews behind and he was pathetically trying to convince the cops that what they had amounted to nothing, because it was deliberately planted.

Is that believable? Not really, I would say. My (current, I should say, because I change my mind a lot) take on Stine: The murder was well enough planned but something went wrong. Z had to improvise and the murder ended up being far more messy than he had intended. He tore a piece from Stine's shirt out of sheer necessity – he needed a rag to wipe down the cab, having left very real clews both here and there.

None of that - even if it is true - proves beyond doubt SFPD have excellent Z prints from the Stine scene, of course. We simply don't know - I guess that's the sad bottom line here.

[snooter]

One reason for thinking the Stine prints are the real deal is Z's own, conspicuous insistence they are not. I honestly think the best explanation for his “fake clews” claim is the most obvious one: He was scared. He had left real clews behind and he was pathetically trying to convince the cops that what they had amounted to nothing, because it was deliberately planted.

Is that believable? Not really, I would say. My (current, I should say, because I change my mind a lot) take on Stine: The murder was well enough planned but something went wrong. Z had to improvise and the murder ended up being far more messy than he had intended. He tore a piece from Stine's shirt out of sheer necessity – he needed a rag to wipe down the cab, having left very real clews both here and there.

None of that - even if it is true - proves beyond doubt SFPD have excellent Z prints from the Stine scene, of course. We simply don't know - I guess that's the sad bottom line here.

always a possibilty norse..who knows but AK had a good source on quality so consider that for what its worth..i am still of belief prints were marginal to poor and led to no suspect or toschi would have made an arrest even on a hunch with the public/media pressure..yes i agree they could be primo prints (I have my doubts) but no suspects were able to be found in any database (codis or other)..somebody once said Z ducked into residence of X..yea for all its worth that could have been the case..we just do not know (bottom line like you said norse)

[AK Wilks]

From what I understood of what Mr. Holes was telling me, he was not really making a negative comment on the forensics work of the SFPD. He was not talking so much about the quality of the prints, though some were only partials, and the technology then is not what it is now. He was saying that none of the prints matched each other, none matched to any prints or partials from the letters or the payphone or any other part of the Zodiac case and none were ever matched to a person. I assume the cab prints were checked against known suspects and probably against known felons in the area. Now they would be digitized and checked against a huge number of people.

Why did Z make the remark about fake clews? Who knows? If he thought he did leave a print he would know his comment would not affect the police. Maybe he did leave a fake clue. He was observed wiping the cab. Maybe it was just a taunt or a boast.

Of course if a cab print matched a print from a confirmed letter, then bingo, we have a Zodiac print. But that did not happen. Mr. Holes and I talked a little bit about the huge number of people that get in and out of a cab. They said they did track down most but not all of the listed rides that day that came from phone calls and printed them. But they had no way to track down hailed from the street rides. I specifically asked about what Graysmith described as the print in blood. Could it have been an existing print that was then covered in blood or was it actually a print made in blood meaning unless there was an extremely careless ambulance worker or cop it was very likely made by the killer. And Mr. Holes just answered again "We don't know if any of the cab prints are actually from Zodiac". He did not give any more specific details.

Bottom line is Crime Lab Chief Paul Holes said mentioning Mr. X and Ted Kaczynski and saying "I would not dismiss them or any otherwise good suspect solely on the basis of a non-match to the cab prints or DNA."

To avoid prints all you have to do is wear gloves. Zodiac was a pretty careful criminal who did several murders, at least 6 IMO and probably at least several more, and he never left a confirmed print at any of them, and made few mistakes in general. Homicides usually have a 50% to 70% clearance rate depending on the city, yet Zodiac never got caught. I seriously doubt he would slip up and leave a print in a cab. If people want to think the cab prints or the stamp DNA are the Holy grail of the case and definitely from Zodiac they are free to do so. Personally I trust the judgment of Mr. Holes, who has actually seen the cab prints and the DNA, and knows the whole story and is an expert.

[Norse]

Well, personally I don't regard the SF prints as some kind of Holy Grail - certainly not. I just can't help but notice that SFPD has seemingly used these prints to carry out what are presumably meaningful comparisons with the prints of various people, including suspects like A. L. Allen.

As for fake clews - well, I guess what he was up to inside that cab (as per the description of the witnesses) could be interpreted in different ways. To me it looks like he was wiping down the cab, having left prints behind, because (I surmise) something went wrong and the whole thing became far more bloody and chaotic than he had intended. I just don't see it as likely at all that he was in a position to leave "fake clews", nor in what shape or form he could conceivably do so under the best of circumstances. It smacks of cartoonish villainy to me - something he'd brag about but not be capable of actually carrying out. I believe that LE representatives have been asked about the "clews" in the past and that they have in no uncertain terms dismissed the idea as nonsense.

Z appears to have been a organized criminal, yes - to an extent. But only to an extent. There is something wild and almost haphazard about him too. Besides, if what I theorize about is even partly true, Stine was a botched job - he messed up in some way. Had to clean up that mess - organized or not, it all went a bit wrong for him that night and he very nearly was caught as a result of it, lest we forget.

[AK Wilks]

True Norse. My only points are that avoiding fingerprints is easy just wear gloves. Yes the Stine murder may not have gone according to plan but I still doubt that Z would make such a basic mistake as leaving prints, something he apparently avoided at the other crimes scenes. And my other point is that a police forensics expert who has actually seen the prints and knows all the information about them is not convinced they are from Zodiac, and said that Mr. X, Kaczynski and any additional otherwise good suspects should not be dismissed just because of a non-match to prints or DNA.

[gumshoe1]

Akwilks, I (or anyone else) could come up with any number of similarities between any two given people if I know enough facts about each of the two people. You ignore or attempt to explain away all the differences between Ted Kaczynski and the Zodiac killer. You are cherry picking your data. Therefore, your thesis is not compelling.

[AK Wilks]

Akwilks, I (or anyone else) could come up with any number of similarities between any two given people if I know enough facts about each of the two people. You ignore or attempt to explain away all the differences between Ted Kaczynski and the Zodiac killer. You are cherry picking your data. Therefore, your thesis is not compelling.

Can you give me an example?

I point out similarities such as both killed strangers, demanded their words in the newspaper or innocents would die, both designed bombs and created codes.

I also point out differences such as Z killing up close and personal while TK killed from a distance.

But making a blanket accusation of cherry picking with no facts no evidence is not very helpful.

If you give specific examples of me being unfair we can discuss it.

[snooter]

Akwilks, I (or anyone else) could come up with any number of similarities between any two given people if I know enough facts about each of the two people. You ignore or attempt to explain away all the differences between Ted Kaczynski and the Zodiac killer. You are cherry picking your data. Therefore, your thesis is not compelling.

i do not fault you for this belief in any way..in some sense its a logical belief..but give these guys a chance who have publicly pushed forth tthere guy..AK, mike, morf and many others have done a ton of research and in many instances spent there own coin to have documents sent to them..TK interest me. X interests me and so does morfs guy down in riverside..for your first posts it was a ballsy post but like i said I can understand your thought process..