RMS TITANIC - 1912- 2012
Posted: Tue Apr 16, 2013 5:20 pm
trainmaster, Subject: RMS TITANIC - 1912- 2012 Fri Mar 16, 2012 5:17 pm
This year is the 100th anniversary of the sinking of the most famous ship of all time - The White Star Liner RMS Titanic.
I have been a faithful student of the Titanic since 1955. I will start this thread with some interesting facts about the liner and add to it later.....
DID YOU KNOW...........................
There was a fictional story of the Titanic - Morgan Robertson wrote a novel about a luxurious Atlantic liner, the largest of its kind in the world at the time.
Robertson loaded his ship with the richest passengers, precious cargo, and then sank it by hitting an iceburg on a cold April night. Only a handful
survived - the ship did have enough lifeboats - but then, it didn't matter.
The ship was labeled "unsinkable." Robertson called his ship the Titan.
You may ask "what is the big deal?" Robertson simply took the Titanic
facts, created them into a fictional story, and named the fictional book "Futility" since the exphasis was on the unnecessary loss due to the arrogance of the "Guilded Age."
The big deal is this.........Robertson's novel just about tells in detail the story of the Titanic sinking happening to the fictional ship Titan, only the novel was written fourteen years before the Titanic was built!
DID YOU KNOW......
The Titanic was not the only ship of her class - it was part of the Olympic class of ships, the Olympic being the first ship, the Titanic the second and the Gigantic would be the largest and most luxurious.
After the Titanic sinking, the 3rd ship's name was changed from "Gigantic" to "Brittanic." Of the three ships, only the Olympic was launched in white - the other two in black. The Olympic was the only ship to survive and served a 35-year career and was dubbed "The Ship Magnificant." The Britannic never served a day as a passenger ship - it was requisitioned by the Royal Navy as use for a hospital ship and sunk when it struck a mine 21 Novwmber, 1915 in the Agean Sea near the island of Kea, Greece.
DID YOU KNOW......
The Titanic and Olympic were sister ships, virtually identical in every way, except for a small enclosed in panel on the upper deck of the Titanic at the last few days before sailing because of complaints of first class passenters being sprayed with drops of ocean water. That addition is the only way to tell the difference between the two liners.
DID YOU KNOW......
Very few photographs of the Titanic exist....most pictures you see are of the Titanic's sister ship [i]Olympic. The Olympic was open to the public for two weeks and thoroughly photographed inside and out. The Titanic's construction was constantly delayed because the Olympic had a series of mishaps which caused work on the Titanic to halt to repair the Olympic. The maiden voyage, set for March was moved up to April 10, 1912. Even on sailing day, work was still continuing. No public tours were allowed. White Star Line stated there would be plenty of time for that when the ship returned.
There are only a few exterior pictures known to exist - the only interior shots were taken by a Roman Catholic Priest, Father Browne. He boarded the ship, sailing first class from Southhampton, took a number of pictures of the interior, and debarked when the ship made its last stop in Queenstown (now Cobh - original name).
DID YOU KNOW......
The Titanic was only a triple-screw vessel and only three funnels were operational. Because the public associated big and luxurious ships with four funnels (like the Lusitania), a fourth "dummy" funnel was added
for ventilation purposes only. In the pictures, notice smoke coming only from the first three funnels.
b]DID YOU KNOW......[/b]
The real owner of the Titanic was J.P. Morgan who owned the Morgan Combine, and J.P. shocked the Britiish by forcing a takeover of the White Star Line in 1905? Although the Titanic was really American-owned, it was of British Registry. This action forced the British government to subsidise the Cunard Line by providing funds for three large vessels, the Lusitiania, Mauratania and Acquitannia. All three would be luxurious passenger liners, but built for war as well, and would subject to takeover by the Royal Navy, if necessary.
DID YOU KNOW......
The Titanic (or Olympic) were never labeled, advertised or called "unsinkable" by the owners, The White Star Line, or the builders Harland and Wolff of Belfast, Ireland. The only statement of "unsinkable" was the result of a trade magazine, The Shipbuilder mid-summer 1911, when describing the
watertight technical specifications stated the captain could pull an electric switch, instantly closing all watertight doors, making the vessel practically unsinkable. When the press read that statement, the adverb practically disappeard and the press stated the ship was unsinkable. Passengers and crew bought the line. When Mrs. Arthur Caldwell asked a steward, after the ship hit an iceburg, if the liner was safe, the steward replid, "Yes Lady, God Himself could not sink this ship." *****
DID YOU KNOW...........................
The Titanic's builders number, when placed in front of a mirror, read "NO POPE." Many Roman Catholics considered this a bad omen.
DID YOU KNOW...........................
The Federal Records Center in Maryland lists the Titanic as the second most requested item of interest. The top three items are:
1. Jesus Christ
2. RMS Titanic
3. The Civil War
DID YOU KNOW...........................
The Titanic is still continued to referred to as the "largest object made by man and the largest ship in the world. If the Titanic had not sunk, it would only
have been the largest liner for a few months, as the German liner Imperator, was 50,000 tons versus Titanic's 46,000 tons and much larger.
Until 2000, the RMS Queen Mary (in Long Beach CA) was the largest ship ever built, having 83,000 tons displacement and would have dwarfed the Titanic in a side-by-side comparison. Ironically, the Queen Mary 2 was the first ship to surpass the Queen Mary in size at over 150 tons of displacement.
There will be more to come and feel free to ask questions. For a serious student, the "Bibles" so to speak, of the Titanic are Walter Lord's "A Night To Remember" which is a fast-reading book and Geoffry Marcus "The Maiden Voyage (very hard to find) which is a very detailed book. The difference between the two works is Walter Lord's (still in print) startes with the last night of the Titanic, April 14, 1912, where "The Maiden Voyage" starts with The Boat Train on April 10, 1912. There are many other excellent books to read, as well as junk, and I will post a list of recommend books as time goes on. I have most of the books to read, plus boxes of "The Titanic Commutator" the offical publication of the Titanic Historical Society, being a member. I also have the official transcripts of the 1912 British and American inquiries into the sinking as well as books by survivors.
****All conversations are taken from the 1912 hearings. Mrs. Arthur Caldwell survived the sinking.
This picture is a very rare one of the Titanic and the very last one taken of the ship as it leaves Queenstown and sets sail for destiny. (Picture by the Reverend Browne)
This is the same picture with the red highlighed upper deck, which was the only way to tell the difference between Titanic and Olympic. On the latter, there was no enclosure.
traveller1st, Subject: Re: RMS TITANIC - 1912- 2012 Fri Mar 16, 2012 9:41 pm
Very cool Train.
I worked as one of the designers for the Titanic Exhibition in Belfast for a few years. Got to see lots of White Star artifacts and meet a guy who watch the Titanic sail from Belfast. Also had access to the Ulster Folk and Transport Museum's photo archives showing the ship being built. There was one interesting photo that was proported to be the titanic leaving Belfast with a tug escort but it was discovered that it was actually the Olympic arriving in New York and the branding on the tugs had been scratched out on the negatives to disguise this.
Caught this on BBC recently thought it was interesting. A local reporter for the BBC, Mark Simpson found out that one of his relatives was the ship's doctor.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-17260579
And then the good news about the aforementioned letter in the report.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-17346079
I hope to go and visit the new Titanic building at Queen's Quay in the Titanic Quarter. They have built a full sized replica of the grand staircase as the entrance to the restaurant.
trainmaster, Subject: Re: RMS TITANIC - 1912- 2012 Sat Mar 17, 2012 12:39 am
VERY interesting, traveller1st. You were lucky to meet the people you did.
If you still live in the area, did you see the Olympic artifacts, including staircase, dining room sets, preserved in a hotel? I can look up the exact place. That is permanent display, as the artifacts were bought when the Olympic was scrapped (along with Mauratania, sister ship to the Lusitania) when Cunard-White Star need the money to build the Queen Mary.
The four greatest ships of all time are listed as: 1. Titanic 2. Normandie 3. Mauratania and 4. Queen Mary. The first sank, the second was destroyed by fire, capsized, used by the Navy as a research vessel and the remains scrapped, the third ship was scrapped along with RMS Olympic and the fourth, largest of all, was saved and is a museum at Long Beach CA - a MUST SEE for anyone in that area. Plan at least an entire day. Spruce Goose was sold and is in Washington (state of) now.
Seagull, Subject: Re: RMS TITANIC - 1912- 2012 Sat Mar 17, 2012 10:04 pm
Trainmaster, I received my monthly copy of National Geographic today and the Titanic is on the cover which also has the blurb that there are "exclusive new photos of the wreck". Personally I am not that familar with everything Titanic as you are so I wouldn't know an exclusive new photo from an old familar photo. I do believe that Nat Geo is available on news stands now, if you do not have a subscription you can still get a copy!
trainmaster, Subject: Re: RMS TITANIC - 1912- 2012 Sun Mar 18, 2012 12:34 am
Thank you very much, Seagull.
I think the issue may contain photographs from the latest sonic scan that was done on the ship recently. Using sonar technology allows scientists to see the ship in a way never before possible. Then, it could be in reference to the 100th anniversary of the sinking.
April 15th:
Titanic sunk
Taxes due....
The letter "T" stands out on that date!
I also might add the History Channel will be showing a 100th anniversary special on the Tianic, including the sonar photos on April 15th. I will post when I learn the time of the presentation.
Again, thanks Seagull.
TITANIClly yours,
Trainmaster
AK Wilks, Subject: Re: RMS TITANIC - 1912- 2012 Sun Mar 18, 2012 1:11 am
And I think the James Cameron film "Titanic" is being re-released soon in 3-D. A friend of mine who did not like the flick called it "an episode of Upstairs-Downstairs with a plumbing leak." The first half runs a little long and the romance is a little much at times, but once it gets to the actual sinking part, I thought it was quite well done in terms of effects, details, emotion and everything. I am under the impression Cameron was pretty accurate on historical details but I don't know for sure. It was exciting and intense anyway.
Seagull, Subject: Re: RMS TITANIC - 1912- 2012 Sun Mar 18, 2012 10:18 pm
I've got a question for you Trainmaster. Is there a better site to look up passengers names than this one?
http://www.encyclopedia-titanica.org/ti ... nger_list/
The reason I ask is because quite some time ago I bought a vintage postcard with the Titanic on the front, on the back was the signature of person who claimed to be a survivor of the shipwreck. Also, with the postcard was a newspaper article about the person claiming to be the survivor. I do not know what date the article was written.
I looked the person up at the above website to see if he really was a passenger but was unable to find his name anywhere on the website. I think I may have been snookered! Fortunately I did not spend a great amount on the stuff.
Here's a scan of what I have-
trainmaster, Subject: Re: RMS TITANIC - 1912- 2012 Mon Mar 19, 2012 1:32 am
Hello, Seagull:
I have checked several lists I have which include suvivors and those lost, including a special "Commutator" issue from the Titanic Historical Society.
None of those lists include a Max Christoff, and my lists are accurate.
The web site you referred to is run by John P. Eaton, probably one of the most knowledgable historians and experts of the Titanic.
For years, Mr. Eaton was the historian of the Titanic Historical Society, until he had a falling out in 1980 with Edward S. Kamuda, founder. Mr. Eaton was kicked out, along with THS President Charles A. Haas. The two men have formed RMS Titanic, Inc. and have been given the custody of the remains of the ship. Both are very good experts on Titanic, but Mr. Eaton is tops. The only one I rate above his is Walter Lord, Titanic Historian Extraordinare
and he passed away in 2002. His best selling books, "A Night To Remember"
"The Night Lives On" (written after the 1985 discovery of Titanic) and "Infamy"
(the day of Pearl Harbor) are Mr. Lord's best known books. When Walter Lord was ten years old, he talked his parents into sailing on the RMS Olympic, Titanic's sister ship so he could learn more about the lost liner.
Here is a personal autographed photo Mr. Lord gave me. I met him at a Titanic Convention (takes place every 4 years) back in the 1970's.
Mr. Lord (and this writer) consider the William McQuitty movie "A Night To Remember" (based on Mr. Lord's book of the same title) to be the
most accurate movie of Titanic, period! Mr. McQuitty saw the Titanic sail on her sea trials and wrote his autobiography "A Life To Remember."
Mr. Lord was asked about the (James) Cameron movie and he replied the
scenes were fairly accurate, lots of mistakes, and I could have done without the love story.
It was the watching of "A Night To Remember" that inspired Cameron to make this movie. Unfortunaetly, Cameron relied on the current THS historian, Don Lynch, (who is not worth a hill of beans, IMO) and I think John P. Eaton would have been a much better choice. I am disappointed to say I think it was the "Love Story" that won Cameron's film all those Academy Awards and top box office money!
There is really no story, as such in ANTR. It follows the facts, although they have to be condensated for a movie. For example, in ANTR it was 5th Officer Lowe who is allowing people in the lifeboats on the starboard side, regardless of gender, when it was really First Officer Murdoch.
ANTR shows Titanic sinking intact and not breaking up. Why would a producer, who was so bent on accuracy show the sinking as he did and not how Cameron did, which was very accurate?
Simple answer: Macquitty relied on two of the most accurate witnesses, who were trained observers - one, Col. Archibald Gracie, who wrote "The Truth About The Titanic," probably the most coveted and accurate account of the sinking - Gracie lived long enough to write his experience and died from exposure as a result of being in the water so long - his estate is now the official resident of the New York Mayor. The other witness was second wireless operator Harold Bride (who lived until 1956) and both men stated the Titanic went down intact. They were also aboard until the end, and Gracie did not remember the band playing nothing. Bride recalled there was "Autumn." in his writing of the memories. What is not clear is if Bride was referring to the popular ragime tune "Autumn" or the "Hymn de Autumn" which is the British setting for "Nearer My God To Thee."
Wallace Hartley, Titanic's bandleader (who was lured away from the Mauratania) for Titanic's maiden voyage, stated in an interview in 1907 that if he were ever on a liner that was sinking, this would be the last selection played. (It is not the American tune). That tune is used in ANTR.
Many survivors, in lifeboards, including the psuedo-survivor Christoff, of whom I could never come up with any proof he was aboard, claimed to hear the band play. IMO, I doubt if they played anything at the end - the slant was so steep, one could not walk, let alone stand and play an instrument. Further, at the end,
everything, including the huge 29 massive boilers, broke loose from their mountings and crashed towards the front and out of the bowels of the ship.
No one could hear anything over that noise!
I also might point out, Seagull, that I have read several articles in the bay area, the last being in Point Richmond, of people claiming to be a Titanic survivor, and again, I could not find their name on any of the passenger or crew lists.
Finally, this made me SICK....around 1981, I paid $4.50 for a Titanic book titled "The Titanic the Psychic and the Sea." Inside the book was a line drawn through a signature. It is easy to read though....."with fond wishes, from Edwina Makenzie." She sailed in second class as Edwina Trout, was in her mid-90's when I met her, and one of the most cordial TItanic Survivors at the event. Walter Lord talks quite a bit about her in ANTR. Along with her augtograph in that book was her card (like a business card)"Edwina MacKenzie - Titanic Survivor." I have that card in one of my "Commutator" issues which comes in an envelope. I didn't want to take a chance of losing it.
Although the signature has lines through it, I got quite a lot for $4.50.
Millivina Dean, the last living survivor, passed away a few years ago - now they are all gone. Millivina would tell stores about the sinking, but they are not her rememberances - she was told the stories by her mother - Millivina was a new-born 3 month baby when she was on Titanic. The last living survivor, who could vividly recall what took place was Miss Eva Hart, who was silent on the subject for over 30 years after the sinking. In Cameron's film, I though it would have been neat to have Miss Hart place the role of the old woman
(who was an aged Rose), but Miss Hart passed away a year before the film was made.
By the way, the was no Rose and Jack nor "The Heart of the Ocean." There was a priceless jewelled copy of the Rubaiyat of Omar Khayyam.
Reading both ANTR and "The Titanic The Psychic and the Sea (true stories)
makes very interesting reading. WARNING: The Titanic is a very contagious subject. Reading these two books would get anyone hooked on the ship, and they do indeed. But, here is a sample of the forward that serves to wet an appetite for Titanic fever from Walter Lord's ANTR:
And, I promised you more pictures - here are two very interesting ones. There is a MAJOR mistake of the night scene - can you guess what it is?? (Hint: Read my first post on Titanic)
And finally, this one of interest. Both pictures and text from the 1955 first pressing of "A Night To Remember" by Walter Lord.
Seagull, Subject: Re: RMS TITANIC - 1912- 2012 Mon Mar 19, 2012 1:15 pm
Thank you for all the information, Trainmaster!
It is very sad that pretenders would try to cash in, even if only for notority, on the celebrity of being a Titanic survivor. It seems as if Max Christoff was not the only one from what you related in your post. It's hard to understand what makes people do that kind of thing. He likely lied to his family as well as the reporter and the people in his community. He probably had no idea that one day there would be computer databases where every little thing about the Titanic would be available to anyone and he would be exposed. It can be shattering to a family to learn that a loved one turned out to be nothing more than a liar.
trainmaster, Subject: Re: RMS TITANIC - 1912- 2012 Mon Mar 19, 2012 4:10 pm
Seagull:
It seems as if people will do anything for money. This Christoff is not the first to do such a thing.
The local press seldom does research, so an oldtimer who "remembers" his dream illusion of being
on Titanic is certainly a guaranteed way to get attention.
Even conspiracy theories hit the Titanic, just like they did with Elvis, Marilyn and others. The book "Titanic Conspiracy, Cover-Ups and Mysteries Of the World's Most Famous Sea Disaster" by Robin Gardiner and Dan Van Der Vat is such an example, except it is done in a different way.
The authors first lay out the story of the Titanic and I must say it is well presented and researched. Unlike most wacky theory books, this one waits until the last chapter to present their ideas, and it goes something like this:
The White Star Line was under the International Merchantile Marine, owned by J.P. Morgan (true)
Morgan expected a huge return for his investment and wanted to monopolize the lucrative North Atlantic trade(very likely)
The Cunard Line, now heavily subsidized by the British Government, built three transatlatlantic liners designed for speed and comfort. J. Bruce Ismany, President of the White Star Line (former owner) was determined to surpass Cunard in terms of profits and customers, and at a 1907 dinner party with Lord Pierre, owner of Harland and Wolf Shipbuilding firm of Belfast Ireland, proposed three new White Star transatlantic liners that would not be fast, like the Cunarders, but would surpass them in luxury and pampering, so customers woulld not mind the extra day or two and enjoy the ammenities. (True)
The first of the trio of ships build was the RMS Olympic, followed by the RMS Titanic, and later the third, and largest of the three, would be the Gigantic, the most luxurious of the three. (true)
The Olympic proved to be a problem, in terms of getting into shipwrecks, or losing a propellor blade or other accidents requiring work on the Titanic to stop to repair the Olympic and get it into service (true).
Therefore, the owners decided to substitute the propellor blade of the Olympic, which fell off, for that of the Titanic. The Olympic's propellor blade had the builder's number of 401, and Titanic's maiden voyage was delayed until a new propeller blade could be manufactured. (true)
However, it doesn't stop there. The owners decided to substitute the Olympic for the Titanic. White Star Line did not have distinctive ship name for the china, linen, towels, etc. (true). The ships were practically identical, except for a few improvements on Titanic, based on Olympic's year of service. (True).
The White Star management decided to (1) use Olympic as a impersonator of the Titanic and order Captain Edward J. Smith to have an accident on Olympic (diguised as Titanic) to collect on insurance and use the new ship as the Olympic (false-but their theory).
Captain Edward J. Smith had a very questionalble safety record (true), although I might add it was not because of his decisions; most of his accidents happened in port when the pilot was in charge, but, whatever happened to the ship was the responsibility of the captain. The Titanic almost didn't get its maiden voyage, as it almost collided with the New York (true) and only a last minute decision by Captain Smith avoided the disaster. Many considered this incident as a bad omen.
So, according to the authors, the ship that sunk was the Olympic, not the Titanic, and they use 401 as the propeller blade as proof of their claims. However, 401 was taken off the Olympic and placed on Titanic (true).
Interesintng, but not even a plausible theory.
Mr. Wilks, most of Cameron's facts were fairly accurate, especially the sets, taken from the blueprints of Titanic (same as in ANTR), but many things were done in the film that never would done on any first rate ship of that time. For example, Cameron has his major character, Jack, a sterrage passenger (3rd Class) going up from 3rd to 1st, and back and forth. This practice was never allowed. The three classes of passengers, first, representing the rich and famous, second class, representing people of professional jobs, and third class, mainlhy immigrants who were poor and took all their belongings with them to a new world, were not even allowed to come near each other. There were barriers for that. Each had their own class and were restricted to that.
Second, when "Jack" climbs up to the bow and claims "I'm the King Of The World," had anyone actually tried such a stunt, there were crew members and watch people stationed near the bow to prevent such an incident.
The painting in the first class smoking room was "The Approach To The New World" (as used in ANTR and noted in Walter Lord's book) was actually on the Olympic - "Plymouth Rock" was the painting in Titanic's smoking room. I have not seen the film since 1998, but remember numerous errors at the time, and
movie viewers are always confused when fictional passenters are mixed in with real ones. (As done in the 1953 Fox film of the same title).
The sinking was a very good presention, IMO, and is a result of the lessons learned from the 1985-86 expidictions, the knowledge of which was not available in either 1955 when Mr. Lord's book was written, or 1958 when Sir William Macquitty made the film, and he was a sticker for accuracy, but even Macquitty
substituted mistakes versus accuracy for film continuity. One thing in ANTR that Mr. Macquitty did, as in all three films, but Mr. Macquitty went to Walter Lord and said "I know you are not going to like this, but it is a scene too good to pass up," and that was to have "Nearer My God To Thee" sung as the ship went down.
At least, the correct tune was used, IF such an incident happened, and most major Titanic students are of the opinion it did not.
Hollywood, IMO, seems to forget things that have been tried and flopped. 3-D was a novelity in the 1950's which quickly faded, and have a brief reprive in the 1980's, and I predict will fade away again. I have the impression James Cameron is just trying to "milk" his film (or it could be the studios) for all the profits they can get.
The list of Titanic films actually starts with a 1912 play about the sinking, then the 1929 "talking" film of Titanic was the first, titled "Atlantic." In the 1940's Nazi propaganda was used in a Titanic film against the British - there was nothing further until 1953 when 20th Century-Fox did some research to locate survivors and made a film about the White Star liner. Like Cameron's Fox used fictional characters mixed in with real ones; the sets were not based on the real Titanic - instead, the sets from the Vanderbuilt estate were used, but the Titanic model was one of the best of all the films. That model was given to the THS and the 50-foot model is on display at THS headquarters. ANTR built a model, way out of scale, and it was dismantled as the ship sunk.
Cameron practiallly built the ship over again for his film and went out of his way to match the only known photographs (by Father Browne) of passengers aboard Titanic.
Had Cameron stuck to accuracy, instead of a useless love story, IMO, his film would considered the finest of the Titanic movies; it was the only one in color, probably would have been better if he had used former Titanic Historian John Eaton instead of a young Don Lynch, who is half my age, and I have studied the ship years before he was born, and Mr. Lynch has made numerous mistakes both in consulting with Cameron, and books he has authored. The mistakes are of a careless nature, as a claimed "learned Titanic student" (we never call ourselves experts) continually mistakes Olympic for Titanic, and so forth, and such simple facts which are mistaken by the THS historian, to me, are an embarassment to the Society. But then again, I think he was appointed out of desperation. To be appointed, one must live near Springfield, MA to got to board meetings, and not many serious Titanic students live near there or want to be involved in lengthly meetings.
Getting a little off topic, there, but in a quick review, Mr. Wilks, while I think Camerson's Titanic was good, especially the visual effects, better research would have made it better. Cameron has also made several documentaries on his personal dives to the ship. I would say Mr. Cameron has become another person
who has a genuine interest in Titanic as a result of viewing ANTR, and has spent a lot of his money
both on his film and the dives to the ship.
, Subject: Re: RMS TITANIC - 1912- 2012 Mon Mar 19, 2012 6:01 pm
Lots of great info in this thread. Thanks to Trainmaster for all of the details, and to the others who chipped in with their insights.
trainmaster, Subject: Re: RMS TITANIC - 1912- 2012 Mon Mar 19, 2012 11:10 pm
I am glad you enjoy it - there will be more to come, plus some very rare pictures of Titanic and her sisters.
The TITANIC disaster didn't have the greatest loss of passenger life (yes, both passenger and crew, but not passengers alone). That title goes to the Empress Of Ireland, a Canadian Pacific (same company as the railroad) liner which struck the Norwegian vessel Storstad in the fog-covered St. Lawrence River on 29 May 1914. The Empress was hardly the size of the Titanic, nor was it a luxury liner by any means. The damage done to the Empress (or any of the other accidents after) would have proved a nuisance to the Titanic, which was designed to take those types of collisions.
I am also a very faithful student of the RMS Lusitania, only studying it for the last 35 years, and will talk more about that liner in a year or so as its 100th anniversary comes on 7 May 2015. I will say this - if the Titanic was in the Lusitania's spot near the Old Head of Kinsale and was hit by that same torpedo from the U-20 submarine, it would have survived.
On the other hand, had the Lucy been in the Labrador Current on April 14, 1912 (Lucy was put into service in 1907) and struck that iceburg in the same manner, she would have easily survived. Lucy was BIG-T's major rival in the transatlantic trade, only the Lucy was much better built than the Titanic.
Had the Titanic spotted the berg 15 seconds sooner, or 15 seconds later, it would have survived. Another omen for the Titanic - she hid the berg in the only way vulnerable to her.
After the Titanic sinking, the twin-sister Olympic was secretly put into drydock at Harland and Wolff, and all the design flaws corrected, including extending all the watertight compartments to the main deck level and her double bottom extended above the waterline. Olympic was fitted with lifeboats for everyone on board (64 in total that was originally called for on board Titanic) and the third sister "Brittanic" (originally Gigantic) had the same modifications incorporated into her construction, in addition to better davits. But, nothing helps a ship if its bottom is blown to pieces when it strikes a mine. Only 58 lives were lost in the sinking of Brittanic, all due to the lifeboat changes; those lives lost were people thrown into the way of the turning propellers.
Why name change from Gigantic to Britannic?
The "Guilded Age" as Mark Twain called it, was an era of arrogence and over-confidence. The White Star Line named all three vessels after the Greek gods, to imply nothing mightier could stand in their way. After the Titanic loss, the third ship, then under construction, had its name changed to a former successful White Star Line ship "Brittanic." The third vessel never saw a day of passenger service.
TZMC, Subject: Re: RMS TITANIC - 1912- 2012 Tue Mar 20, 2012 3:52 am
trainmaster wrote:The four greatest ships of all time are listed as: 1. Titanic 2. Normandie 3. Mauratania and 4. Queen Mary. The first sank, the second was destroyed by fire, capsized, used by the Navy as a research vessel and the remains scrapped, the third ship was scrapped along with RMS Olympic and the fourth, largest of all, was saved and is a museum at Long Beach CA - a MUST SEE for anyone in that area. Plan at least an entire day. Spruce Goose was sold and is in Washington (state of) now.
The Queen Mary was first opened in Long Beach as a museum in May 1971. My father and I went to see it. My dad wanted to go because he had shipped to England on the QM during WWII. A portion of the ship was restored to how it looked as a transport ship and my dad said it was recreated perfectly. It is now also a hotel, first run by Hyatt but since 1988 is owned by the Walt Disney Company although it is never marketed as a Disney property.
In 1976 my father and I went to see the American Freedom Train (being pulled by Espee GS-4 #4449) when it stopped in Long Beach directly next to the Queen Mary. The Spruce Goose was there from 1983 to 1993 but I never got to see it.
trainmaster, Subject: Re: RMS TITANIC - 1912- 2012 Wed Mar 21, 2012 12:34 am
Very intersting, Jim.
The Hotel part and the ship are run by the Walt Disney Company. The city of Long Beach owns the Queen Mary.
You were at the Queen the same year I was. Great source for Titanic books!
I sent you my e-mail address to correspond with me. Would be curious if you still live in (former) Espee country.
Zamantha, Subject: Re: RMS TITANIC - 1912- 2012 Wed Mar 21, 2012 12:59 pm
Very interesting reads on The Titanic! Thanks trainmaster & TZMC for sharing all your knowledge!
I once had a reproduction of a Brass Titanic Lamp in an old boat. It was a beautiful brass lamp that set off a nautical table to perfection. I can only imagine how beautiful the inside of the Titanic looked with all that brass, lights and so much more.
* PS, trainmaster, read your PM's!
trainmaster, Subject: Re: RMS TITANIC - 1912- 2012 Wed Mar 21, 2012 7:11 pm
Stay tuned for beautiful color pictures of Titanic's interior.....Color pictures of what was sold and in use today and black and white photos of the interior and cabins.
NOTE: Because of Titanic's brief, short life, very few actual photos exist of her...most were taken by Father Browne. All the other photos are of RMS Olympic, Titanic's twin sister. Interiors identical, except for a few minor details, including picture framed above the 1st class fireplace,
Having some computer problems - my software must have struck an iceburg!
I will be fixing that tonight, so look for the pictures in a few days.
By the way, to dispell a major myth................
The Titanic was NOT sold out, as many articles and even books imply.
It was less then 2/3's full (fortunately because of the disaster). Two
millionaires, among others, had a last minute premonition and cancelled their trips - ship's owner John Pirepoint Morgan (J.P.), and Arthur Gwayne Vanderbuilt was another.
Morgan died less than a year later. It is reported he never recovered from the loss of the Titanic.
Vanderbuilt's premonitions didn't continue - he was not so lucky on the RMS Lusitania. The sinking cost him his life.
traveller1st, Subject: Re: RMS TITANIC - 1912- 2012 Thu Mar 22, 2012 1:59 am
trainmaster wrote:VERY interesting, traveller1st. You were lucky to meet the people you did.
If you still live in the area, did you see the Olympic artifacts, including staircase, dining room sets, preserved in a hotel? I can look up the exact place. That is permanent display, as the artifacts were bought when the Olympic was scrapped (along with Mauratania, sister ship to the Lusitania) when Cunard-White Star need the money to build the Queen Mary.
The four greatest ships of all time are listed as: 1. Titanic 2. Normandie 3. Mauratania and 4. Queen Mary. The first sank, the second was destroyed by fire, capsized, used by the Navy as a research vessel and the remains scrapped, the third ship was scrapped along with RMS Olympic and the fourth, largest of all, was saved and is a museum at Long Beach CA - a MUST SEE for anyone in that area. Plan at least an entire day. Spruce Goose was sold and is in Washington (state of) now.
That sounds pretty cool. the new Titanic Building in Belfast has a full size replica of the Titanic's grand staircase as the entrance to it's restaurant. I'm not sure but I think it's due to open on the anniversary.
As for the Olympic. I haven't seen the stuff you mention but I have seen some Olympic artifacts recently. They have them on display in the museum here in town. The odd door panel with stained glass and stuff like that. I have to say it was weird touching them and just imagining how it would have been at using the same doors on the Titanic.
trainmaster, Subject: Re: RMS TITANIC - 1912- 2012 Thu Mar 22, 2012 5:50 am
Traveller 1st Wrote:
"As for the Olympic. I haven't seen the stuff you mention"......
Those displays, along with the other color pictures, and their location will be posted soon. Maybe you can take a trip to see them, if you haven't already.
The restaurant sounds interesting. Please keep us posted.
traveller1st, Subject: Re: RMS TITANIC - 1912- 2012 Fri Mar 30, 2012 1:19 pm
The Titanic Centre in Belfast opens tomorrow. I won't get down to see it for a while but I'll take pictures when I do.
http://www.titanicbelfast.com/Home.aspx
trainmaster, Subject: Re: RMS TITANIC - 1912- 2012 Fri Mar 30, 2012 1:53 pm
Thanks, Traveller:
When you take the pictures, please post some here. I will be putting up some more information this week.
Also a note, there will be a "boatload" of documentaries in April on National Geographic Channel and History Channel on Titanic. Check your local listings for times. I think the 1st one on NGC is April 8th.
trainmaster, Subject: CAMERON'S TITANIC STORY BASED ON FACT Thu Apr 05, 2012 1:57 am
I have been a faithful, dedicated student of the RMS Titanic since 1955.
Even to this day, I learn tidbits about the lost liner – nothing that is substantial……
Until now.
I sometimes get inquires about someone, who made news in the obituaries of a newspaper, who claimed to be a passenger aboard “Titanic.”
I have several, very accurate and updated, lists of cargo, passengers and crew who were aboard Titanic. None of the names submitted to me were on the list.
But, this time was different.
Henry Morley, 37, a married man, was travelling with his 19-year-old girlfriend Katy Phillips. Both were listed as “Mr. and Mrs. Marshall” with Katy’s name beside the Marshall one, and Morley was listed by himself.
Both were second-class passengers. Morley gave Katy a small necklace, nothing like Le Cœur de la Mer, but it was a token of their engagement.
Katy Phillips survived – Henry Morley did not.
Director James Cameron’s 1997 movie “Titanic” was a huge success, based on a fictional story. And the story was fictional.
In a recent article in The Titanic Commentator, it seems that Cameron’s story was based on an actual event. The details are listed, below.
There are many differences between Cameron’s version and the real story. For example, Rose is traveling 1st class, while Jack is in steerage, or third class. Rose, who is not happy with her life, decides to end it all by attempting to jump from the fantail of the ship. Jack rescues her, and that is the start of the fictional romance.
Captain Edward Smith and First Officer Murdoch are standing near the wheelhouse, looking forward, while Jack stands at the very edge of the bow and proclaims “I am the king of the world.”
Such events as these, would have never been permitted to happen on the real ship. Further, the classes on board the ship, first, second and third, represented the world’s division of people, as a whole, The wealthy and privileged were first class, professional people were second, and common blue collar workers were third – regarded as a small step above cattle during the “Guided Age” as Mark Twain put it.
Although the fictional story does have an emotional and strong impact, and as it turns out, is based on fact, there was no Le Cœur de la Mer aboard (“The Heart of The Ocean”), but all the first class passengers had valuable jewelry aboard, which collectively would amount to the millions. We are reminded that Edith Russell rushed back to her stateroom to get her “lucky toy pig” which played the “Maxie” when its tail was turned. That pig was
only used twice – once on the real lifeboat to entertain a child and calm a newborn baby, and the second time, in another “lifeboat,” this time as part of a set in the making of the accurate Titanic movie “A Night To Remember.
Edith Russell got her pig, leaving behind thousands of dollars worth of jewelry.
(Edith Russell eventually gave the toy pig to Sir Walter Lord, ("Mr. Titanic") who kept it in his collection.
Here is the story.
Child of lovers who inspired Titanic has ashes spread at sea
A surviver of the Titanic, whose story was said to have inspired the Oscar-winning film, has had her ashes scattered at sea in Cornwall.
Ellen Walker was conceived on Titanic
One of Ellen Walker's last wishes was to have her ashes scattered at sea. She was conceived on board the Titanic by her runaway parents, whose story was said to have inspired the Oscar-winning film.
Her father died but her mother survived, eventually returning to England where she gave birth to her daughter in Worcester.
Earlier this week, Mrs Walker's remains were scattered off north Cornwall at Cataclew Point, bringing to a close an extraordinary chapter in the Titanic's history.
She lived to the age of 92 and fought a long battle to have her father's name put on her birth certificate, a battle she never won.
Her father, Henry Morley, 37, a married Worcester shopkeeper, and her mother, Katy Phillips, 19, a shop assistant, booked a second-class crossing on the doomed ship.
They went under the assumed names of Mr and Mrs Marshall.
When the vessel struck an iceberg, Miss Phillips took one of the last places on a lifeboat. Mr Morley, who could not swim, drowned.
Before she died, Mrs Walker told how her mother escaped.
"My father didn't want her to go and tried to cling on to her, but the sailors threw her in the boat," she said. "My father's body was never found. My mother was in the lifeboat for eight hours.
"All she had on was a nightgown, but one of the sailors wrapped his jumper round her. She went on to New York and stayed there for three or four months."
Her lover gave the young Miss Phillips a sapphire necklace, which has since featured in Titanic exhibitions.
The piece of jewellery is thought to have been the inspiration behind the "Heart of the Ocean" necklace featured in the film, in which the ill-fated lovers, Jack and Rose, are played by Leonardo Di-Caprio and the British actress Kate Winslet.
Mrs Walker was born in January 1913. Although she only discovered her father's identity in the last 20 years of her life, she tried unsuccessfully to have his name added to her birth certificate.
She died last October and, in her will, left most of her money to the RNLI and specified that her ashes be scattered at sea.
Mrs Walker's son, Robert Farmer, 70, said: "I think that she wanted to be in the same place as her father because she had never known him. All I knew as a child was her father died on the Titanic."
Among those who went to sea to scatter Mrs Walker's ashes was Ian Fuller, an auxiliary coastguard, who befriended her when she lived next door to his father.
"She kept all the cuttings about the Titanic that she could collect and I believe that she had a cabin key from the ship," he said.
"She fought very hard to get her father's name put on her birth certificate and appeared on television several times but sadly never won her battle. Ellen was passionate about the work of the RNLI because her life and that of her mother was saved by a lifeboat.
"She has left money to the charity and it seemed fitting that her ashes should be scattered in this way.
"Although Ellen lived in Worcester and spent time in London, she always had links with the north Cornish coast."
Sean Szmalc, a Titanic historian, knew Mrs Walker well and said he believed the necklace and love affair between her parents inspired the film.
It is understood that Mrs Walker sold the necklace some years ago, although it is not clear why.
Originally printed in the London Telegraph by By Sally Pook
12:01AM GMT 04 Nov 2006
traveller1st, Subject: Re: RMS TITANIC - 1912- 2012 Tue Apr 10, 2012 11:17 pm
Titanic Records on Ancestry.co.uk
They are free until 31st May.
http://www.ancestry.co.uk/titanic?o_iid ... ch=Inbound
trainmaster, Subject: Re: RMS TITANIC - 1912- 2012 Wed Apr 11, 2012 12:26 am
Thank you, sir, but I would say Caveat emptor to anyone calling or dealing with an overseas number. You can get a detailed list of passengers from Walter Lord's "A Night To Remember" or on the link below. Just go to find-a-grave and key in the name for short bio and gravesite photos. I might add that the site you mentioned wants your CREDIT CARD number, just to register you for free!
You can find a comprehensive list complied by John P. Eaton, probably the finest historian on Titanic at http://www.encyclopedia-titanica.org/ti ... nger_list/
Eaton is the former historian for the Titanic Historical Society, who was replaced by Donald Lynch (sigh). Lynch is nowhere near the accurate student that Eaton is. Too bad Eaton was not consulted for the Cameron film. A lot of errors might have been avoided. I have studied the ship about as long as Eaton has.
Lynch is a fairly newcomer. He has made mistakes in his books, mainly confusing Olympic for Titanic. No serious student of Titanic should make such an error.
traveller1st, Subject: Re: RMS TITANIC - 1912- 2012 Wed Apr 11, 2012 12:33 am
Ah in that case ignore.
trainmaster, Subject: Re: RMS TITANIC - 1912- 2012 Wed Apr 11, 2012 3:16 pm
NOTICE TO EVERYONE:
As you are aware, this Sunday marks the 100th Anniversary of the Sinking of The Titanic.
There will be numerous documentaries on Titanic on Discovery Channel, National Georgraphic Channel and The History Channel, now through Sunday.
ABC will air a TV- Movie about Titanic on Saturday and Sunday.
If you have an on-screen guide with your cable (Key in Titanic on DIRECTV receivers) check that for times. I will post them later.
Many of them I have on DVD - there are new ones, including:
"Titanic - The Final Word" by James Cameron - airs Sunday on NGC (recorded and edited it last night - it is a good one!
"Save The Titanic by Bob Ballard" - airs Sat or Sun on NGC.
"Titanic's 100th Anniversary" on History Channel Sunday - I have ordered the DVD, but might record it.
I will post definate times for all shows later on this thread.
trainmaster, Subject: TITANIC SHOWS AND DOCUMENTARIES THIS WEEK Wed Apr 11, 2012 3:47 pm
TITANIC DOCUMENTARIES THIS WEEK
To celebrate the 100th anniversary of the sinking of the Titanic, here is
a list of the programs scheduled. Times listed are MDT.
NOTE: All satillite stations have east coast and west coast feeds. Be sure to check your guide for the correct times. The dates are correct. Shows with an (*) are new productions.
Most programs air on the weekend, but the dates are noted:
* “Titanic’s Tragic Sister” April 12 1100 hours MDT H-2
* “Titanic –Birth of a Legend April 14 1200 hours MDT DISCOVERY
* “Rebuilding Titanic” (4-part series) April 15 0800-1200 NATIONAL GEOGRAPHIC
* “Save The Titanic” with Bob Ballard April 15 1600 hrs NATIONAL GEOGRAPHIC
* “Titanic at 100” April 15 1800 hrs MDT HISTORY CHANNEL
“Titanic’s Final Moments” April 15 1900-2100 MDT HISTORY CHANNEL
“Titanic” Achilles Heel” Various repeats (2 hours) HISTORY CHANNEL
* “Titanic-TV Movie” 2 parts) Sat 4-14 and Sun –4-15 ABC
zodio, Subject: Re: RMS TITANIC - 1912- 2012 Sun May 06, 2012 4:57 pm
Heard on the radio someone (not sure who) is planning a repeat of the voyage, same type ship, etc. The DJs reporting were discussed going to the bow shouting "I am king of the world", making out in the vehicle storage area, etc. Wouldn't mind if they hit an iceburg and these guys went under too. Heard anything about it?
trainmaster, Subject: Re: RMS TITANIC - 1912- 2012 Sun May 06, 2012 11:38 pm
Yes, somebody is building a replica of the Titanic. I have the information somewhere and will post it when I find it. And, they intend to duplicate the maiden voyage (hopefully sans iceberg).
The "King of the world" crap mentioned by the character "Jack" NEVER would have been permitted on the real Titanic - nor would "Rose" have had the chance to attempt suicide the way she did. Both the bow and stern had crew posted at both places at all times.
tahoe27, Subject: Re: RMS TITANIC - 1912- 2012 Mon May 07, 2012 12:01 am
I'm not sure the name of the program I watched just the other day, but it was REALLY good and one I had not seen before. They showed images of the ship from above and you could see exactly where the pieces of it fell on the ocean floor. It was probably one listed above--pretty sure it was on the History Channel. Enjoyed it!
trainmaster, Subject: Re: RMS TITANIC - 1912- 2012 Mon May 07, 2012 12:27 am
Tahoe 27:
I think you are referring to James Cameron's special "Titanic-The Final Word" which showed in detail where the pieces fell.
Put out by National Geographic, it is an excellent program. I recorded it, cut the commercials and it is on DVD. It is also for sale on the NGC site.
Keep an eye out for NGC's series "Seconds Before Disaster - The Sinking Of THe Titanic" - the facts of the story are wrong, but the research part is excellent on what caused the ship to sink.
Just thought there might be someone here who hadn't and might like to read it. I was also curious to see if Project Gutenberg still had it, since that's how I read it. 
